Episode 4
· 01:02:07
Hey, everybody. Welcome to the latest installment of Brick Marketing Live Podcast. Today is Tuesday, May 5. Today, we're gonna talk a little bit about AI, SEO, content marketing, social media, and what's new in the digital marketing industry. I'm Nick Stamoulis.
Nick Stamoulis:I'd like to welcome the Brick Marketing team and we are live. So welcome everyone. Okay. First article today, what we're gonna talk about is from Search Engine Land. The framing gap, why AI can't position your brand.
Nick Stamoulis:I thought this was I thought this was actually a really good article as most every article we pick is really great for various reasons. I thought this one was great because essentially what it's what it's telling us is and it's really more for brands and companies that AI just can't magically see your brand, magically see your product or service. You have to be cohesive with your brand, cohesive with your messaging, your content, your citations. It all has to work together and, you know, AI isn't just gonna make it up. So yes, it's, you know, artificial intelligence and it's providing research, but if your brand is a sloppy mess, it's not gonna fix that for you.
Nick Stamoulis:So, Catherine John, what do you guys think on that?
Katherine Tsoukalas:Yeah. That's true. I mean, it it goes along with what we're saying. The first step to making sure you're well poised for AI inclusion and to be in the AI answers is to make sure your brand is solid. And if it's not, AI is gonna get confused.
Katherine Tsoukalas:It won't find you. Your users will be confused, your audience. This is the this is the important topic of the moment. It really is.
John:Yeah. And AI is already inconsistent as it is. With your positioning is all over the place on different websites that it's pulling from, it's gonna get even more inconsistent. And then your audience won't know what what is what you are. They just they just won't Right.
John:They they'll get confused.
Nick Stamoulis:Yeah. What's what's what's what's interesting to me is I see a parallel here from the early days of of SEO where it's kinda like, you know, as SEO people, our job is to help our clients. Right? To accomplish whatever outcome they're looking for from their SEO channel of marketing. However, if you really stop and think about it, as SEO folk, our job has been to clean up the internet.
Nick Stamoulis:If you really think about it for years. And so, you know, as AI SEO or AI marketing folks, our job is to help direct, you know, AI, you know, so that, you know, things are clearer. So I definitely see a parallel for sure. Alright. Moving on.
Nick Stamoulis:This was an interesting interesting so this isn't really new news, but it's it's a done deal now. And so this is an article from Yahoo Finance. Basically just letting everyone know that Adobe has officially purchased SEMrush, all the assets associated with SEMrush and that includes search engine land, the SMX conference. And I I think this is, I think gonna be either really good and I or really bad. And I I remember when this first broke, we all you know, the three of us talked about it during this podcast.
Nick Stamoulis:But I'll tell you, it could be great because now you're you're dealing with a company that has a lot more resources
Katherine Tsoukalas:Mhmm.
Nick Stamoulis:That, you know, can can create better products, better products for our industry, better products for customers. But it may not be good because on the flip side, now they're too big. Now it's too big where and then to me, that was one thing that I really I I loved. Right? Which was Mhmm.
Nick Stamoulis:Because SEMrush was a Boston based company. We're in Boston. Right? And SMX was third door media and search engine land, and they were independently owned. They were small company as well.
Nick Stamoulis:Now they're huge part of Adobe. So I don't know. Time will tell. Time will tell. So I don't know what you I don't know what you guys think.
Nick Stamoulis:Catherine, what do you think on this?
Katherine Tsoukalas:I find it interesting because I recall Adobe was one of the earlier adopters with AI elements. They they jumped in right away and incorporated, AI images into some of their product suites. It was way early for it. And as you know, early AI imagery was not great. It's getting better.
Katherine Tsoukalas:But
Nick Stamoulis:Right.
Katherine Tsoukalas:Anyway, this they always had a mind, like an eye to the future, so to speak, because they jumped right in and went for proving that they were adopting and adapting into this new era. So I find this acquisition interesting. It'll be interesting to see where things go. Will the product expansion of SEMrush be a good thing or a bad thing? I don't know.
Katherine Tsoukalas:I guess time will tell. I am impressed so far with Adobe's willingness to adopt AI.
Nick Stamoulis:I agree. I agree. Moving on. So this is an article from the Brick Marketing website from our blog. Instinct matters when choosing a digital marketing agency.
Nick Stamoulis:So this is this is a very big topic. You know, so we're for for those of you that aren't aware who we are, we're a digital marketing agency. We've been in business for twenty one years and we're based in Boston. We offer services, training, and consulting. And, you know, we've worked with hundreds of companies in the b to b world and b to c world and this is something that we find very interesting that, you know, for instance, you know, I speak to potential clients every day.
Nick Stamoulis:Quite a few actually. And I speak to folks that neither three of us do, other members of our team. We speak to folks at some of our events and, you know, our trainings and workshops and, you know, trade shows and we, you know, we speak to a lot of folks. And I think, you know, the problem that I that I think that a lot of people, you know, and again, this is from someone that's been on the client side. Right?
Nick Stamoulis:And obviously, agency side where we're at. But, you know, hiring a digital marketing agency and when I we say digital marketing, that could mean an SEO firm. That could mean company to manage your social media or your pay per click or your AI search or or rebuild your website. Whatever the case might be, you wanna find the right people to help you. And I think that's the bigger a bigger the biggest thing than, oh, let me look at your case studies.
Nick Stamoulis:Of course, you know, we we are people gonna put bad reviews on their website? Are they gonna put bad case studies out there? They're not. Right? Right?
Nick Stamoulis:It's gonna be all positive. So the point here is, you know, as a business owner, you you you kinda have to, yes, look at the data, look at the reputation of the of the the service provider that you're looking, the partner that you're looking to bring in, but more importantly, look at the people that are gonna gonna be working. How long have they worked for the company? How long has the company been in existence? And do you know, what's that gut feeling?
Nick Stamoulis:And I know it's it's it's my in my mind, it's maybe 80% data, but you still have that element of gut and instinct, which a lot of companies sometimes overlook. You could find the perfect partner to help you that could really literally help your business but because they don't have the right testimonial in a way or or you know, we get a right reference. Like that's a big thing for us is we sign non disclosures and and non compete and confidentiality agreements with our clients. So someone says, hey, can I have a reference? It's hard.
Nick Stamoulis:Right? Like we're not applying for a job. Right? We're not we're not applying to be your VP of marketing. We're applying to be an extension of your company to help you solve a problem and or help you accomplish outcomes.
Nick Stamoulis:So, Catherine, John, what do you guys think on that? This is a big topic. Really is.
Katherine Tsoukalas:It is. We have worked with a lot of clients, and we have seen all sides of this. We have been the agency in a relationship where gut was not working. We have I don't know what else is Snice.
Nick Stamoulis:That's the best way to put it.
Katherine Tsoukalas:I don't I don't and we have also had plenty of delightful clients where the gut worked for both sides, and the relationship has been amazing. And one one thing thinking about all the amazing clients that we've had and continue to have, really, it's the instincts. I mean, could they have shopped around? Could they have found a different agency? Sure.
Katherine Tsoukalas:But they all prioritized a factor that often doesn't get in the conversation often enough.
Nick Stamoulis:Right.
Katherine Tsoukalas:That is, can I work well with them? Do they really seem like they get it? Can they help us?
Nick Stamoulis:Yeah. And and, you know, and I think that's another thing just to add on that. And then, John, I wanna get your thoughts. But, like, if you really stop and think about it, it's a two way street. Right?
Nick Stamoulis:Mhmm. So, like, you know, we have expertise. Like, you know, like, I've personally been doing this for twenty eight years. I think you've been doing it just as long, Katherine. Right?
Nick Stamoulis:Mhmm. So it's kinda like we have members on our team that have been with us for years too. And it's kinda like, okay. You're bringing that level of expertise and knowledge. You know, it's it's we wanna help you, but if you're making our job miserable and hard for us to actually help you, why would we want to?
Nick Stamoulis:Right? If you think of that on the other end too. So it is it's a working relationship. And I think a lot of clients think that, oh, well, it's, you know, I'm gonna puff my chest and, you know, I'm in charge. Yes.
Nick Stamoulis:You are in charge, but so are we. Right? You're coming to us for a level of expertise to help you with an outcome that you can't achieve internally on your own. It's the bottom line.
Katherine Tsoukalas:And that's what yep. And that's what we're in charge of. We're in charge of making sure you get the
Nick Stamoulis:outcome that
Katherine Tsoukalas:you're asking us to give you.
Nick Stamoulis:Yes. Totally. Totally. John, what do you think on this? And we'll move on.
John:I think the gut feeling also is incredibly like, one of the most important things because if if you're, you know, in in the process of shopping and you're talking to different agencies and there's, like, ever a moment where you're sort of like, I don't know if that what maybe what they said or maybe a service that they're providing isn't completely, like, either making sense or feels a little bit off, I would I'd I'd really consider that feeling. And if you find, you know, everything else was was perfectly fine, then, you know, maybe you can you you can ignore that one one small blip. But I think that that really, like, taking that gut feeling into account will will have you, like, match up with the right agency for your company.
Nick Stamoulis:Absolutely. Agreed. Moving on. Next is an article from Search Engine Journal, another great publication. AI search success, how benchmark website performance in your how to benchmark website performance in your industry.
Nick Stamoulis:So I thought this was a great one because what it does is it it kinda shows, honestly, a lot of basic stuff, but a lot of things that website performance that folks overlook always. You know, for us, when we get a client and we're, you know, managing their SEO or AI search or, you know, general of engine optimization or AEO, whatever you want to call it, we look at the technical aspects of a website to make sure a website is performing. And so, you know, things like page load time, responsiveness to user interactions, visual stability, you know, very important, like load time. You would think that people in today's world would know that a fast website is important. But you'd be surprised how many websites we see and clients that we work with and try to help that, you know, that's a major issue still.
Nick Stamoulis:You know, for us, you know, making sure, you know, load time is one to three seconds, honestly. Like it really, like it has to be tight in today's world. There's no excuse. There really isn't. I mean, you know, there's people who come up with excuses but, know.
Nick Stamoulis:And so and then looking at things like, you know, doing competitive analysis. That's another big thing with load time. You know, if your site is six second load time and all your competitors are two seconds, you better believe when your potential clients are shopping around, they're gonna take note of how slow your website is. So Mhmm. Do you guys wanna chime in on this one?
Nick Stamoulis:Sure. Catherine, you wanna chime in? Yeah.
Katherine Tsoukalas:Yeah. When you when you look at your website, you absolutely need to look at your performance indicators, like what Nick mentioned, load time. And I feel that a lot of people gloss over it unnecessarily and unfairly. It's something that you really need to talk about. Just the other day, I tried to talk to a digital marketer that leaned toward, being a content provider about some of the technical aspects of AI and SEO, and it was like, oh, well, that's not really my department.
Katherine Tsoukalas:I'm not going to worry about that. But I feel like she should worry about that because it absolutely affects what she does.
Nick Stamoulis:Oh, yeah. Yeah. It's
John:we live in
Nick Stamoulis:a world where nothing to what we do is siloed at all. And and if you're a marketer, I hate to say it, and you still live in the mindset of, oh, that's a different department, unfortunately, you're gonna be looking for a job. Because Yeah. You know, seriously, like marketers today, you need to be have a Swiss army knife of knowledge and true expertise. That's just how it is, especially in the age of AI.
Nick Stamoulis:So John, what do you what do you think on this?
John:Yeah. I mean, like when it goes down to, for example, the the loading time one is something that like even earlier today, I I had to go into a website, and it it took maybe, like, five seconds to load. And that just left me as, like, the user confused on whether I was slow, the website wasn't working. Right? And I find that a lot of people don't have like the level of like patience to, you know, even, you know, for a load time or if they're going on your web site and and things are off or hard to find, they're not gonna click around forever to try and find what you're what you're up to.
John:So you need to make sure that, like, your Web site is is as good as it can be for user experience.
Nick Stamoulis:Absolutely. Absolutely. Moving on. This is an interesting article from entrepreneur. The AI revolution is mostly marketing and here's the proof it's overhyped.
Nick Stamoulis:So this was interesting one because this was this was a different take. So like, you know, all a lot of these articles that we kinda talk about in in industry, you know, topics we we discuss often talks about how AI is the bee's knees. It's the it's the most thing it's the best thing since sliced bread. Like literally, like, you know, it is the second coming of the internet and which I all believe. I believe it it's the hype.
Nick Stamoulis:I think it's going to live up to the hype. Not this year, not next year, not the year after, but in maybe ten or fifteen years because it's gonna be completely integrated, believe, in everything, in every way just like the Internet is now and even more so. And so but I think the hype and the point of this article is it was literally talking about how all of these layoffs that are happening are being attributed to AI at these large companies. Like I just heard today. I literally just heard today that Coinbase is laying off, I think, like, like, 10% or a third of their, you know, of their work staff.
Nick Stamoulis:You know, you have, you know, Amazon, you know, laid people off in January. You had, you know, Salesforce laid people off. You had what happened with Oracle. And they're all citing even, excuse me, even Disney cited they were laying people off. I think Catherine, you and I were talking about that.
Nick Stamoulis:Right?
Katherine Tsoukalas:This is
Nick Stamoulis:what it's
Katherine Tsoukalas:like yeah.
Nick Stamoulis:Right. So so here, you know, you have these huge organizations that are using, oh, we're we're creating efficiencies and AI is creating it. So they're laying off good people in every way. Mhmm. You know?
Nick Stamoulis:But but my mind, and we've talked about this and I don't think this is gonna be the end of the story, that it's it's it's a cop out. Instead of these companies actually saying, hey, we over hired during COVID or we had some areas of inefficiency and mismanagement. Oh, let's just use AI as as the standard, you know, the standard excuse and just lay off thousands of people, thousands of livelihoods. And then that's another that's another thing that just drives me crazy. You know, we we're a small company.
Nick Stamoulis:We work with a lot of small and mid sized companies. So to me in my mind to lay people off like that and treat them as pure numbers with an email. Just drop an email and lay off thousands of people. I mean, I I would never even think to do anything. To me, that's inhumane.
Nick Stamoulis:It's not professional and it's inhumane to do that to anyone. So that's my opinion. So guys, what do you what do you think? Catherine, what do you think on that?
Katherine Tsoukalas:Yeah. I have a lot to say about this because I've been having conversations like this, ongoing, where I would review with people, oh, what do I need to do to get better visibility in AI? And I review it. And you know what I say? I say things like make sure your content is well written.
Katherine Tsoukalas:Make sure it's well structured. And then they're like, oh, what do you mean by well structured? I'm like, well, you have to make sure your title makes sense, your subheadings make sense. Okay. I'm basically just telling somebody how to write a good article.
Katherine Tsoukalas:I didn't do anything new there. There's nothing new about what I just said. And there's nothing new about composing a piece of content for AI, for marketing AI, SEO, or otherwise. It's the same skill. Did we get lazy and maybe sort of temporarily forget what a good article looked like?
Katherine Tsoukalas:Possibly. AI is causing us to look back at our our marketing practices in general, not just writing, and it's almost like a checks and balance for us. Are we doing it right?
Nick Stamoulis:Right.
Katherine Tsoukalas:The answer is yes for us because this is what we do all day and for a living. But are or did the processes get muddled down?
Nick Stamoulis:Right.
Katherine Tsoukalas:Our marketing processes. And then another thing about the layoffs that you mentioned, I found that interesting because in digging at the Disney thing this morning, they're laying off in a certain division of the company, it looks like, that was in charge of certain of the movies
Nick Stamoulis:Right.
Katherine Tsoukalas:That they're not making any more of them, and but they're blaming in the headlines AI causing the layoffs. People are.
Nick Stamoulis:Yeah. It's not AI. It's not AI. Right.
Katherine Tsoukalas:They're not making those movies anymore. Like,
Nick Stamoulis:maybe that
Katherine Tsoukalas:was why this layoff happened.
Nick Stamoulis:I just think these big public companies just need to stop seriously. Yeah. Like, take take ownership that you made a mistake. As business people, we all make mistakes. We do.
Nick Stamoulis:We literally do. As humans, we all make mistakes. Own up to it. Say there was inefficiencies legitimately. Let the stock do what it's gonna do, and don't blame and don't throw it on AI.
Nick Stamoulis:I mean, seriously, like, I'm gonna defend I'm gonna defend AI.
Katherine Tsoukalas:Yeah. Because Yeah. No kidding.
Nick Stamoulis:Because it's it to me, it's a cop out completely.
John:Yeah.
Nick Stamoulis:So I don't know. John, what do you think on this?
John:Yeah. I I agree that a lot of the time AI is completely overhyped in the state that it's in right now. It's completely inefficient. It uses way too much power. Like, it is not sustainable in the slightest.
John:All of these companies, a lot of them are going to go out of business. All of these like AI AI, you know, chat companies, right? Going go out of business eventually because they cannot sustain it. I think something really, really interesting is what Apple is doing. Apple is not even touching AI on their own.
John:Right? No. They they don't have their own chatbot. They don't have their own like, they have their, like, AI chips, whatever, but they're not jumping headfirst into AI because I think they also see that it's not ready yet. They're waiting.
John:I believe that they're waiting for all these companies to do what they're doing right now. After they fail, I think Apple, for example, is going to come in and pick up the pieces
Nick Stamoulis:I agree.
John:When it's ready for it. So I think I think everyone just putting all their eggs in like one basket and it's not it's not the right one at the moment. Like AI is powerful, but there are a lot of issues with it right now that we're going to see pop up.
Nick Stamoulis:Oh, yeah. I I agree. I agree. I mean, I literally had a had a had a meeting with someone earlier earlier and they're using agents. Right?
Nick Stamoulis:And I asked them, I said, so tell me about the agents you're currently using for channels of your marketing. You know, how are they working? How well are they working for you? And she's like, well, you know, they it they work okay until they stop working and I have to do a whole bunch of work. I said, right.
Nick Stamoulis:I said, would taking the traditional approach without it, would it have have been just as much time? She said, yes. So and that's what we tell people too because we we we offer an AI agents for, you know, for marketing service. It's okay. I I'm not going to even say it's the greatest because the technology isn't there yet.
Nick Stamoulis:You know, the fact that you still need human intervention to monitor all of it and babysit every step of the way, look for, you know, inefficiencies, look for things that are gonna be broken in the process, you know, to me means that, you know, I mean, it's getting better. It's better than it was six months ago.
Katherine Tsoukalas:Mhmm.
Nick Stamoulis:And six months from now, it'll be even better. But the point is, I agree with you, John. I agree with you about AI, about the overblow. You know, a similar thing happened in the nineties. First in the Internet, in the browser wars.
Nick Stamoulis:Then it happened during the dot com boom. Then it happened during the social media boom when social media right? And the consolidation happened. And then all of a sudden, you know, the kind of the strongest remained. I mean, you know, Gemini will will exist because it's owned by Google.
Nick Stamoulis:So will so will Claude, I think, maybe.
Katherine Tsoukalas:Mhmm.
Nick Stamoulis:You know, I think, you know, chat definitely will because they were the first to market. And, you know, and then you but then you have, like, perplexity. Okay. Are they gonna be in acquisition for someone like Apple in the future? Who knows?
Katherine Tsoukalas:Right.
Nick Stamoulis:Who knows? So alright. We could talk about this for an hour.
Katherine Tsoukalas:But Oh, know.
John:We got
Nick Stamoulis:to move on. We have We'll to move
Katherine Tsoukalas:find it again, I'm sure.
Nick Stamoulis:Yes. Next, another article from Brick Marketing. Visibility is replacing traffic as a core KPI. And so what's interesting is and so really what this what this what our article is saying is essentially that visibility is the measurement now. Being visible in AI search specifically and being visible in all your channels of marketing together cohesively is the key performance indicator of today.
Nick Stamoulis:Right? So, yes, it's about getting leads or sales or outcomes that you want your marketing to accomplish. But without that visibility truly happening, you're not gonna get those outcomes there. I mean, we've seen it. We've literally seen it where SEO, you know, the SEO channel used to do great, doesn't do great anymore.
Nick Stamoulis:You know, PPC channel for different clients, different industries. PPC used to do deliver great leads, doesn't deliver what it once used to. Social media. I mean, we all know about social media. Right?
Nick Stamoulis:What does organic engagement look like on social media? Seriously. One to 3% of your followers actually see your content. So without otherwise, it's a pay to play media. Mhmm.
Nick Stamoulis:Right? Well, look at email marketing. Right? You you've you've high open rates, high click through high click through rates. Right?
Nick Stamoulis:All these KPIs, these stuff that you used to look at, it's about visibility today. So I think companies need to change their mindsets and it's starting to happen. And I know we're ahead at Brick Marketing. We're ahead of the curve. I know we are.
Nick Stamoulis:But, you know, people that I speak to in our industry aren't really even seriously thinking like us right now. Well, they're getting there. But if you're again, you know, we talk about this all the time. If you're a VP of marketing, you're CMO at a larger or a mid sized company or if you own a business, you have to invest in AI search. This is not something to sit put you know, sit on your hands and wait and see how it flushes out.
Nick Stamoulis:Wait till how it season flushes out, you're gonna be behind. And then you're gonna have to pay more money, spend more time, effort, and resources to get you where you could have been if you started ahead. So Mhmm. Catherine and John, what do you guys think on this? If you wanna just quickly chime in.
Katherine Tsoukalas:Yeah. We have seen with some of our clients, oh oh, why is my traffic down? Why? And then I counter it by saying, is your business down? Are you still getting business?
Katherine Tsoukalas:And in one instance, they're getting more than ever even though their Yep. Quote, unquote traffic is down. Why is this? It's because AI is offering visibility, but it's not offering the click to your website necessarily. It might be on some level, but what's happening is people do their own information gathering outside of your website now.
Katherine Tsoukalas:With s with the SEO world, that website used to be the hub of activity. All roads led to the website. Therefore, traffic was a good marker if your marketing in general was working. It's not anymore because with AI, visibility is the most important thing because your website now is one source of many sources that AI uses to find information about you.
Nick Stamoulis:Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. John, anything to add?
John:Yeah. I mean, only thing that I I really have to say is like, it's never too early to start. Right? But it can eventually be too late to start. So or it can't be too late, but you're gonna end up spending a lot more in the future.
John:But if you start now trying to get yourself into AI searches, you're going to have an easier time down the line. You'll get used to it. Mhmm.
Nick Stamoulis:Yeah. Yeah. Moving on. Article from Search Engine Land. YouTube testing new search experience.
Nick Stamoulis:Ask YouTube. I think this is great. Mhmm. And this just literally confirms that, you know, we've been saying it on the AI SEO side of things or gender of engine optimization or answer engine optimization side that the citations and the transcripts on YouTube videos and YouTube shorts are showing up in AI search. And this, in my mind, is an element of Google basically testing the platform to see what type of voice search is coming from it.
Nick Stamoulis:And and I think this is just going to be another layer that's gonna lead to dominance of YouTube being effective for AI SEO. Mhmm. So I and that's why I thought this was an interesting one that it's interesting that it's taken this long for them to actually offer something like this. But if you if you look at even how they present it, and I've actually tested it, and it's like it's geared for full sentence, full prompt. Kinda like Gemini has in chat and Copilot and Claude and all like so so it it's built for AI search.
Nick Stamoulis:So the moral of the story here is those of you that aren't investing in video as part of your digital marketing strategy, a million percent you should be. Right? So yeah. I mean, it's it's not a, oh, we have nothing interesting to say. Yes, you do.
Nick Stamoulis:You know your business well. Right? And so even if it's niche, even if you perceive it as boring, there are gonna be individuals out there that find it interesting to to a degree, and you'll be able to connect with your potential audiences. So so guys have anything to say on this one, Catherine?
Katherine Tsoukalas:This John? For me for me, this aligns with what we've been saying, that AI is changing the way people search. The fact that YouTube is changing their search experience means that they know that to be true as well. It's another data point to support that. I haven't tested it yet.
Katherine Tsoukalas:I'm excited to
Nick Stamoulis:test it. Yeah. It's great. It's great. John, anything to add as a Yeah.
Nick Stamoulis:As a a YouTuber that you are?
John:Yeah. So I I saw this feature pop up. I got like a pop up for it when I went on the app one day. And, you know, I decided to use it. But what's interesting to me is I find that I'm not really searching for things that much on YouTube anyway.
John:Right? Usually I just scroll on my feed until I find a video I like. So I could just see this like replacing the search function that it has now. Don't I think it's like that huge of a change. Maybe it's Right.
John:Maybe less keyword focused in the future, but either way, the algorithm's so strong, it's showing you what you want to see already. So like maybe if you're curious about something, you might be able to go to the ask YouTube and it might have some good videos to show you. But it's not I think the user experience won't be all that different.
Nick Stamoulis:Yeah. I agree. I agree. It'll be interesting to see when, at what point does AI and, again, anyone's guess is is is there, but at what point does AI not need a transcript, not need a description, not need keyword tags, not need URL links, seriously, not need any information. It can just use the video Yeah.
Nick Stamoulis:It's and it's a video and that's it. I think we'll get there. I think we'll get there. And this may be the the start of that. Who knows?
Nick Stamoulis:Yeah. Alright. Moving on. Next, article from Search Engine Journal. Study confirms Google AI overviews cut organic clicks by 38%.
Nick Stamoulis:So this really this really confirmed a lot of what we see day in, day out from clients, from new potential clients, from people we speak to in industries, either in person, you know, at events or you know, just just people we interact with. That zero click searches rose from 54% to 72% when AI overviews were were shown. So again, this article wasn't really a huge shock to me because we've known about the concept of zero click search for a few years. We've seen the data trend that way for a few years. Here's the thing.
Nick Stamoulis:Remember we a little while ago, we talked about an article talking about visibility. Right? This is the important thing to my mind to take away. Right now, we are in a transitionary period of time. We don't know.
Nick Stamoulis:None of us none of us here know or anyone listening really knows unless you're with Google and you know, you work on the product team and you know the timeline. No one knows when Google search is gonna go away. I theorize it's gonna be in a few years. Right? Until then, SEO still gets a lot of traffic and the visibility that you see even though organic visits are down, you're in it's an influencing, you know, the visibility of your organic pages of your website showing up organically for the right searches.
Nick Stamoulis:That is a brand play. And that just contributes to the overall visibility when we talk about as a KPI for visibility. So I think it ties into that. But I think that it might take away here too is if you're working with an agency partner, digital marketing firm, SEO firm, whomever, and they're not all over this and they're not doing anything related to generative engine optimization or answer engine optimization or AI search as a whole, find a new partner because, you know, they need to be. You know?
Nick Stamoulis:And, you know, not a, oh, that's just the way it's trending. You know, look at you have to actually look at the data. Right? And say, oh. The other way of looking at it is, yes, we didn't get a lot of traffic, but these keywords are generating millions of impressions, thousands of impressions, and that's helping an uplift of our brand overall.
Nick Stamoulis:So yeah. Cath Catherine, anything to add on that, John,
Katherine Tsoukalas:after anything? Yeah. Well said. Well said. I we see it with our own eye, the effect it has.
Nick Stamoulis:Yeah. We do.
Katherine Tsoukalas:I didn't know. It's interesting to see a hard number and a percentage. Of course, this is an average. Right? Some may be more affected than others.
Katherine Tsoukalas:But to me, it's just like you said, a validation that now is the time to take this seriously.
Nick Stamoulis:Yep. Absolutely. John, anything to add on this?
John:Yeah. Yeah. Agree that in the probably in the next few years, like you said, Google search itself will maybe take a backseat to the AI completely. Right? The AI aspect of it.
John:I don't know if Google search will 100% go away forever because there is use in being able to scroll through and find, like, the result that you really like. There is a use to that, But I do think that the AI overviews, whatever form it may be in the next few years, will be the main thing.
Nick Stamoulis:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We'll see. We'll see what happens.
Nick Stamoulis:We'll see what happens. And then it doesn't even matter who's right or wrong. It's changing. It really is. It is.
Nick Stamoulis:Moving on. Next article from Fortune. Interesting one. I thought this was great because all it seems that I so when when we research kind of what, you know, what articles we're gonna talk about, I see a lot of trends. And a trend that I see a lot of is the doom gloom in the marketing industry about, you know you know, young people graduating from college, not being able to find a job.
Nick Stamoulis:So I look for I look for things for us to talk about that goes against the doom gloom type stuff that we always talk about because that's what is being reported out there. So what this is an interesting take from Fortune that basically that says, you know, meet a 20 year old student who changed her major to marketing to AI proof her career. So I thought this was a great flip kind of take on it. And and I think it's great because, you know, everyone's like, oh, you know, AI is replacing marketing jobs. I mean, we've literally, we've talked about it.
Nick Stamoulis:Like, you know, graduating students, you know, with with degrees, highly educated, highly qualified, unable to find marketing jobs. Right? They're gonna they're the ones that are because they don't have the experience in their entry level, they're the ones that are gonna take the hit. This just says the opposite in this scenario, which I think is great. In that, major in marketing and then concentrate on AI.
Nick Stamoulis:And now all of a sudden, you have a powerful combination. So I think that's really interesting. You know, I was actually I was speaking with a family friend not too long ago and she's just starting her career, majoring in in marketing, doesn't know if she wants to make stay in marketing. And she said, what advice do you have for me? And I said, my advice is concentrate on AI, nothing but AI.
Nick Stamoulis:It's literally that was my advice. I said, learn the basics, concentrate in AI. How to learn how to do it without AI, but concentrate in AI. Because, you know, that is what's gonna make you employable long term. If you're, you know, a young marketing professional, that right there.
Nick Stamoulis:You know? And be open to it. And if and if you if and you also have to have the mindset of this stuff is changing fast. So you have to be willing to pivot fast. And and if you can't, then it's not not the right field of choice for you.
Nick Stamoulis:That's that's just my advice. So I don't know. Catherine, what do you think? And then, John, I'd love to hear your opinion because, know, you're you're younger than us, so I'd love to hear your your take on it too. So there are
Katherine Tsoukalas:are two buckets for AI. Right? You you could use it as a productivity tool. But marketers have another thing that they have to worry about, which is, sorry, my screen just went dark. Did you did I disappear or am I still there?
John:No. You're you're not. Hear we
Nick Stamoulis:hear you just fine. Yep.
Katherine Tsoukalas:Okay. The second bucket is that as marketers, we have to care about AI because we need to make sure that we're visible for AI to answer with our brand in it. And so marketers are in a unique position that they get to learn both sides of the coin. It's a very exciting time to be a marketing major. I totally support her spirit and her understanding of where the future is, and I definitely applaud it.
Katherine Tsoukalas:I love it.
Nick Stamoulis:Yeah. I it's great. John, what do you think? What's what's your thoughts on this?
John:Yeah. I agree that anything with, like, an AI concentration is going to be extremely valuable when you're going to find jobs. I think that's that's really the only way you're going to find jobs in the future. I think that a lot of the times, like regular marketing jobs or regular just jobs in general that don't have an AI concentration are just going to they're going to be hard to find and hard to come by, and you are going to get overshadowed by people who do have that experience in AI because that's the big thing right now. So, I mean, I I'd say wherever you are, as long as you are at least, educating yourself on AI, how to use it, I think that it's you'll be okay.
John:But, you know, right now the job market's not great anyway. So it's a bit damned if you do, damned if you don't.
Nick Stamoulis:Mhmm. Right. Yeah. Yeah. But learn AI.
Nick Stamoulis:Yeah. That's the message. Moving on. Next article from Search Engine Journal. Bing previews AI citation share for webmaster tools.
Nick Stamoulis:So I was so happy to see this. I actually visit Bing webmaster tools quite often. You know, we look at it for our clients and for our own brands. And I think it's just great how Microsoft for Copilot is literally leading here. And I think this is I think it's just I just literally am very very happy that finally Microsoft is leading in something search related.
Nick Stamoulis:Know, it's literally like, you know, as someone that's been doing this for many many years, you know, I've we've seen the MSN, then Live, then Bing, you know, wars, search wars with Google over the many many many decades. And now all of a sudden with AI, you know, this doesn't mean market share, but for businesses and marketers and brand managers, they now have some actual data that's going to the source of, you know, prompts that are showing, you know, citations that are showing that type of data. I think it's great. I think it's a huge win for for Bing, huge win for Copilot. I just employ and just just really just hope that ChatGPT and Claude and Gemini, you would think Google, seriously, we keep saying this.
Nick Stamoulis:Every time there's a new tool that comes out, we keep literally saying the same thing.
Katherine Tsoukalas:Mhmm.
Nick Stamoulis:Like, hello Google. Right? Like, you have Google search console, just have a section that has that says Gemini. Have all the data right there. Why is that so hard to do?
Nick Stamoulis:Heck, make people pay for it. I would gladly pay for it. Right? So and I'm sure tons of other folks would too. So, you know, the point is and it's not that Google's hurting for money.
Nick Stamoulis:Right? Let's let's be real. Right? Their stock today was at an all time high. So I have no sympathy to like, oh, they can't afford to do it.
Nick Stamoulis:Of course, they can. You know? So remember folks that are listening, our allegiance is to you. People listening, businesses, marketers, not the big fortune companies that aren't listening to us. So Catherine, John, what what do you guys think on this?
Katherine Tsoukalas:One thing that popped in my head is that in today's AI world, right, we each platform that's out has just really tried to find a way to differentiate themselves because ChatGPT still is the main thing that people think of when they think of AI engines. Gemini is pretty prominent because of how it's in with Google, and Claude has its niche. I like to see Copilot carving out its sort of niche by, they were the first and they're the only, I believe, right now that give us data through being web webmaster tools. So it's not they don't have the biggest market share of AI users. However, it's really nice to see the data because we talk about citations all the time and how you need to figure out where you're being mentioned and capitalize on that because it's not just your website anywhere.
Katherine Tsoukalas:We've talked about this. It's nice to see how, like, how it's relevant and where you stand with it. Like, I just did a a search in AI a little while ago, and I I basically asked Chachi Petit to tell me where it got its sources, and it did. I was like, oh, I didn't even think of that one. I just wish they would tell that I would know that data more often.
Nick Stamoulis:Yeah. Yeah. I agree. I agree. John, what do you think of this?
John:I think it's good because I want I want Microsoft and Bing to do well only because Google has such a large share of search Yeah. Right now that they I mean, we all know that that Google's just become, like, complacent. Right? They just do whatever. They don't really care.
John:And if the real competitor actually comes in and can at least put a dent in what they're doing, we might see some real innovation in search and and, you know, AI stuff and and not just have the same product for years and years on end. I think the competition will breed innovation and and that's a good thing. Yeah.
Nick Stamoulis:Very well very well said. So just take a moment now and just let everyone know that this is the Brick Marketing Live Podcast. Everyone can we're streaming live now on the brickmarketing.com slash live URL on the Brick Marketing LinkedIn account and also on our Facebook page. But also, if you don't have time to watch us live or listen to us live, you can also check us out and download on your on, you know, the Brick Marketing live podcast at every major podcast platform. So just wanna let everyone know of that.
Nick Stamoulis:Moving on. Next is an article from Search Engine Land. What are you optimizing for in paid search when keywords matter less? So this is very interesting and really the the the article essentially goes into the fact that with performance max and a lot of the new AI tools that Google Ads are incorporating in that signals are the new keywords. So basically looking at audience data of, you know, what is someone looking for?
Nick Stamoulis:Who are they? And so and I think this is great. I really do think this is great. I honestly believe, again, this this ties to search and we've talked about it, search traditional SEO kind of going away long term. I think the same thing's going to happen with PPC.
Nick Stamoulis:And it's probably going to happen in tandem with Google Ads where it's gonna look for audience trends, how people are searching. Because don't forget, if you're logged in to your Gemini account, it not and you're let's just say you're it you know, Gemini is remembering all data about you. What you search for, how you search. It's almost like browser history. Right?
Nick Stamoulis:Like from, you know, for a web browser. So I think it's only logical to think of, okay, you know, it's basically, it's gonna be almost like meta ads that look for interspace, you know, geographic local targeting, interest level targeting. So I think it's gonna be good in a certain degree but I also think it may be bad in a certain degree because we know, because we we do professional PPC management. We have for over, you know, I don't even know, since 2001, longer than that. And so, you know, we spend most of our time looking at negative keywords and and basically, you know, making sure we're we're we're getting the right fit of the right people who are looking to accomplish outcomes for the campaign that we need to accomplish.
Nick Stamoulis:Right? The conversion aspects. But the challenge is that cost keeps getting more and more and more expensive. So here Google comes in and says, hey, automate your PPC. Right?
Nick Stamoulis:Use all these lovely tools and they are really great tools that they have. But now in order when you do that, you're relinquishing control of your PPC campaign and less control means less great targeting. Less end of sales cycle, you know, kind of bucket people that you wanna get, you know, for for various outcomes. So again, it's interesting because every PPC campaign is different. Every account is different.
Nick Stamoulis:Every advertiser is different in every single humanly way. No two are the same. So I just think it's interesting how the trend is going to less on keywords and it has for many years. This isn't a new thing, but it's it's just getting more and more solidified. And so this could be making that case for, you know, how search is changing.
Nick Stamoulis:So I don't know. What do you guys think? Catherine, what do you think on this?
Katherine Tsoukalas:I think that's at play. Also, in looking at the question, what are you optimizing for in paid search when keywords matter less? I'm not sure. The question feels like an old lens sort of question to
Nick Stamoulis:me. Yep.
Katherine Tsoukalas:It's marketing right now, we need to be able to think in the big picture, and the same is true for paid search. So we're all tied together, each marketing activity, and each needs to be taken with the lens outward. So I feel that the content of this article shows us that we are moving in what I feel is the right direction because Mhmm. I feel that it was an error for us for people to even think that marketing was a bunch of separate channels. It's not.
Katherine Tsoukalas:It never was.
Nick Stamoulis:Right.
Katherine Tsoukalas:I I feel like this is the evidence that AI is moving us in a very good direction as marketers because, taking in the big picture means that we have our audience's best interests at heart and are aligned with our business goals, and that's always should have been the point. And it's the point now more than ever. Keywords are important still kind of not the way that they used to be. And I love what they're saying that you have to look at the signals and data quality and location and just make sure everything is intentional. But also shouldn't we have been
Nick Stamoulis:Right.
Katherine Tsoukalas:All along?
Nick Stamoulis:That's true. That's true. I know we've we we we've talked about it many, many times that marketers over the years have gotten lazy and relied too heavily on SEO, PPC. And now it's a different ballgame. And now you cannot be lazy, marketer.
Nick Stamoulis:You gotta be innovative and you gotta hit it hard at all angles cohesively over a long period of time and test, test, and retest all the fundamentals of traditional marketing. You need to do it and then some in today's world. Yeah. So, John, anything to add?
John:No. Not too much. Just a list kind of goes off of, you know, what YouTube is doing earlier. Keywords are going to matter less and we're going to have more, you know, chatbot like interactions with the So way that we're searching I mean, I I just I just agree with that point that this article is making.
Nick Stamoulis:It's great.
Katherine Tsoukalas:Nice.
Nick Stamoulis:Moving on. Next, this is an interesting article from Adweek that states the number of CEOs who see marketing as overhead has nearly doubled this year. So I found this very interesting and because here's the thing, Marketing is not overhead. Marketing is a should be a growth driving vehicle for a company. Period.
Nick Stamoulis:Right?
Katherine Tsoukalas:Mhmm.
Nick Stamoulis:The the marketing isn't a line item. Right? It's not something that you just say, oh, yeah. I guess we got to do this. Not you got to do this.
Nick Stamoulis:It's you need to do this so that you can grow your company and accomplish your sales goals. Right? Marketing often many times gets a bad rap. It's like, oh, it's easy. Let's just do, again, SEO, PPC, know, and forget about the traditional stuff and it's just line by line by line.
Nick Stamoulis:And it's not that way in today's world. And but it's interesting how CEOs view it as overhead. They view it as it like, oh, we have to do it. Yes. You have to do it.
Nick Stamoulis:But it shouldn't be a you know, it's not like it's it's it should be a place of innovation. I guess that's the point here. It's in in a place of excitement and testing and investing in the business. Not like, I guess we have to do it. All our competitors are doing this trade so I so I guess we have to do it.
Nick Stamoulis:No. You should do the you should do the trade show because you can highlight your products, your services, get out into your community, get good new potential business, not just be there because your competition is there. So I guess it's that mindset of a lot of CEOs. I believe AI is going to change that for them. I do because they're going to have to see.
Nick Stamoulis:It's going to be a point in time where all the traditional channels aren't working as well and there's already starting, right, to not work as well. They're gonna start to not work as well as they had. And they're gonna say, well, geez. Now that's the reason why they think it's overhead. In comes AI search and it's gonna rock their businesses.
Nick Stamoulis:They're gonna say all of a sudden, you know, and and it may not be next year, I think it will be or maybe the year after, but then they're gonna say, oh, yeah. We need to invest in our marketing cohesively so that we truly get the outcomes and growth that the organization's looking for and not just a static line item. It's not insurance. Right? Insurance is something you need to have if you run a business.
Nick Stamoulis:Seriously. Right? It's, you know, it's it's a growth engine. Right? It's a different thing.
Nick Stamoulis:So I don't know. What do you what do you guys think on this? Catherine, what do think?
Katherine Tsoukalas:I think that if a CEO were to tell the CFO that we need to put marketing in overhead, I would hope that the CFO would push back on this because overhead by definition are the cost the indirect costs of running a business. Marketing is not the same as your electric bill and your rent.
Nick Stamoulis:No. It's not.
Katherine Tsoukalas:And that's what this article is saying. The CEOs perceive it this way. Overhead is not your revenue generating activities. Yep. Marketing is a revenue generating activity because it brings in leads.
Katherine Tsoukalas:It's not overhead by definition. Right.
Nick Stamoulis:Do you think
Katherine Tsoukalas:I don't what else to say.
Nick Stamoulis:I I mean, do you think having your is is your sales department, is that overhead?
Katherine Tsoukalas:No. Right.
Nick Stamoulis:It's not. Sales is a function that's necessary for It's every a for profit business. So it's I I agree. I mean, it's it's it's just flawed thinking and it's shocking to me many CEOs think this way and c suite think this way. And honestly, Catherine, I can see CFOs not pushing back on this.
Nick Stamoulis:Because They do. We know we know this. CFOs are just they're just numbers folks. Right? They're, you know, controllers and accounting folks and finance people.
Nick Stamoulis:Marketers. They don't understand marketing. They really don't. Yeah. And so they just never have.
Nick Stamoulis:It's again, that's where the overhead they probably they're the ones that probably say that it's overhead along with the CEOs. They guide them to that, you know. So So John, yeah, anything to add, John? Oh, tell me.
Katherine Tsoukalas:Yeah. I wanna quickly add one more thing, a little bit of empowerment for marketers. If you're in a company where your CEO thinks that marketing is overhead, you should probably try as best as you can to educate your company that that is not the case
Nick Stamoulis:because we're making a job in And then find a new job and then find a new job. Yeah. Sorry.
Katherine Tsoukalas:Yes. Exactly. Exactly. You're not you're not a good fit in that in that team because they don't value marketing and they don't understand what it does.
Nick Stamoulis:Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. John, what do you think?
John:Yeah. I think it's like more of like an education issue on knowing what marketing really is because maybe to a higher up, you might you might think marketing is just getting paid ads. Right? And then maybe then you can see that as overhead, like, oh, we throw x amount of money at this every single month. And it that that's all you see from it.
John:You don't see the results unless you really know what's happening and know that marketing isn't just paid advertisements. Right? And I think that you guys are right that AI is going to come in. Paid advertising in that way is going to switch up and then people will see how important marketing really is.
Nick Stamoulis:Yeah. Yes. Yeah. I agree. Moving on.
Nick Stamoulis:Article from Brick Marketing from us. Improve AI search visibility without hurting SEO. So this is actually interesting because this is the style that we take to right now, in mid twenty twenty six, this is the approach that we take for AI search is that we integrate AI search or generative engine optimization, answer engine optimization. We integrate that into your existing SEO program as a foundation and your content marketing. The reason is we're in that transitionary period right now.
Nick Stamoulis:If we put a tunnel vision, like we we we've talked over and over how this is all interconnected and how it's all every every piece of creating a visibility in AI search, it comes down to marketing, great content, good fundamentals, good technical, you know, having good schema. But it's not just schema. Right? Right? Like, need good traditional SEO.
Nick Stamoulis:You need good usability on your website. Right? You need good load time. You need all of these things that are traditionally related to having a good technical SEO presence. Right?
Nick Stamoulis:Your content. Right? Your content, even if you're not getting as much traffic as you used to from organic, from SEO, you still need that visibility there. And then you layer other things like we know that, like, search engines can visibly see the content top to bottom, can read the thematic aspects of the content. But AI search generally looks for maybe the top third.
Nick Stamoulis:That's why we see bullet points and summaries prevalent. That's why FAQ content's important. The point is is you have to balance both. Do a very good job of of traditional SEO and maintain it and build on it and invest in AI search, generative engine optimization, answer engine optimization, and then have your content support both cohesively and that you're just not creating content for the sake of it. Those days are long gone.
Nick Stamoulis:It has to be strategic content, different types of content. When we say content, we're not just talking blog posts. We're talking FAQ content, static content, white paper content, video content. It's all content, and they all need to be cohesive in nature. That's what the point of this article is.
Nick Stamoulis:So, Catherine, anything to add here?
Katherine Tsoukalas:Yes. So this just goes to show you where we're at. Right? We can't hurt our SEO now because SEO is still viable. We're still going to Google and searching.
Katherine Tsoukalas:Whether or not we read the search results underneath or the AI answers is a whole other thing entirely. But the value still exists that we do want our businesses to be returned there. So the trick is to do what you need to do for AI search without hurting SEO. Now if you're doing your marketing as a whole correctly Mhmm. You're not really doing that much that's different because we always needed high quality, well structured content that's just like a fundamental of writing.
Katherine Tsoukalas:It's not really changed, but there's some little tweaks that we can do that will help with both, honestly. Like
Nick Stamoulis:Yep. A
Katherine Tsoukalas:content summary above an article is not gonna hurt anything. It's gonna help both. So Absolutely. Just need
Nick Stamoulis:to Absolutely.
Katherine Tsoukalas:Be careful of separating because separating we I want us to get out of the silo mindset anyway.
Nick Stamoulis:Agreed. Agreed. Alright. Last article for today. We is from Search Engine Land.
Nick Stamoulis:Why more content is no longer a reliable way to grow SEO. So this is literally what we were just talking about.
Katherine Tsoukalas:Mhmm.
Nick Stamoulis:That content why volume con having a content a volume of content worked for SEO. It used to work great. It really used to work great until it stopped working. And now it's just complete waste of time. Really, I think the the goal is is, you know, if you're if you own a business or if you're a marketer and you don't know where to start with this, you may have a site that maybe is aged out or SEO that's aged out or stale content marketing program that's no longer active.
Nick Stamoulis:The key here is you first need to audit all of your content assets. Can they be recycled? Right? Can they be reused? Can they be rewritten so they're now relevant?
Nick Stamoulis:If not, get rid of it. Simple. Three zero one redirected. If they can be recycled, find strategic ways to recycle it so it aligns with your target audiences, the goals of the business, outcomes that you're looking to accomplish, integrates into all other channels of your marketing and your AI search as well. So I think that's the key difference right now.
Nick Stamoulis:So Catherine, I know as a content person, I wanna get your thought on this and then John wanna get your thoughts on this as well and we'll close it out for today.
Katherine Tsoukalas:So as you were talking, I was sitting there trying to remember when was more content. How long ago was that? Like, I
Nick Stamoulis:don't know long it's two thousand years ago? Yeah. Well, I at least. I wanna say, like, my my mind, you asked me when 2010 would be my thought.
Katherine Tsoukalas:Around candida era. Right? Like a Yes. Crackdown? That that was fifteen, sixteen years ago.
Katherine Tsoukalas:So why more content is no longer a reliable way to grow SEO? It has been such a long time since it was a reliable way to grow SEO that I don't even know what to say.
Nick Stamoulis:Yeah. Yeah.
Katherine Tsoukalas:The the implication might be, oh, AI has changed it, but it's been so long. We cannot have thin content. That's been a thing for a long time. Thin means that you're it it has several meanings, but one of the definitions of it could mean that one article looks like the next article looks like the next article. And that's what Google back in the day figured out back fifteen, sixteen years ago figured out it is.
Katherine Tsoukalas:It's it's repeating yourself and and not covering the topic as well as you can and just constantly repeating yourself. Yep. Great article to bring that to our attention, but I just wanted to remind everyone that
Nick Stamoulis:Oh, yeah. It's been a long time. Yeah.
Katherine Tsoukalas:Not been viable for a while now.
Nick Stamoulis:Nope. Not at all. John, anything to add?
John:No. Not really. I mean, I I it seems only natural that better content is more efficient than just
Katherine Tsoukalas:Yeah.
John:Blowing things out a wall forever and ever and ever. Oh, yeah. Just keep rehashing content over and over again. So yeah.
Nick Stamoulis:Gotta be strategic. Gotta be strategic. So alright. So on that note, I'd like to thank everyone for joining us today for the latest installment of Brick Marketing Live Podcast. We will join you and be with you next Tuesday, May 12 at 04:30PM.
Nick Stamoulis:So a little bit later. We'll we'll start a little bit later. Be sure to catch this podcast on all the major platforms, and we actually have a webinar coming up on June 10. So those of you that are interested, feel free to check out on the Brick Marketing website, register for our free webinar. It's a good one about AI search, SEO, and content marketing and driving leads.
Nick Stamoulis:So it's a really, really good one. And we have a training. If anyone's interested, check it out. Our next training is in the June. You can just go right to the Brick Marketing website and find that information.
Nick Stamoulis:And always, if you need any help with anything that we talked about today, you can feel free to schedule an appointment with me, Nick Stamoulis, right on the Brick Marketing website. Otherwise, thank you Catherine and John and thank you all for being with us today and we will see you next week.
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