Episode 9
· 01:05:07
Good afternoon, everyone. Welcome to the Brick Marketing Live Podcast. I'm Nick Stamoulis. I would like to welcome the Brick Marketing agency team with us today for this week's installment of the Brick Marketing Live Podcast. Today is Monday, June 22.
Nick Stamoulis:And we're gonna dive right up right in. So welcome, John. Welcome, Katherine, to the Brick Hi. Brick Marketing Live Podcast. And just so everyone knows, we are streaming live on the Brick Marketing website at brickmarketing.com/live.
Nick Stamoulis:You can also catch this podcast later this afternoon, this evening on all of the major podcast platforms. So having said that, let's dive in. First article that we're gonna talk about today is a really good one from the Search Engine Journal website. Google Research shows how AI spam can be detected. And it's really a great article that talks about how many of the LLM AI platforms, specifically Gemini and Chat, are beginning to detect spam activity in content, in citations.
Nick Stamoulis:So I think this is really great. You know, I'm not going to bore everyone with all of the, you know, the minuscule details. I I highly recommend everyone to go visit the search engine journal website and really catch this article that Google is, you know, essentially starting, you know, to kind of crack down on AI spam. I think it's great. And, you know, and I also believe that, you know, we talked to many clients about this that love using AI to create content.
Nick Stamoulis:And we've talked about it many times on this podcast and talked about it in many many outlets. And I would say content creation for using AI has its place. But I think by and large, static, you know, information pages, articles on your website, on your company's website should not use AI to to be written. And I think that, you know, it's it's like we've seen these cycles before. I mean, I don't know.
Nick Stamoulis:Catherine, John, you guys wanna chime in on this?
Katherine Tsoukalas:Yeah. I mean, I'm starting to be able to really detect what AI spam looks So if users are starting to be able to tell, then it makes sense that there needs to be better controls for Google or any other place to understand what the spam looks like so that we can be protected against the bad content that could be released. Any content is good. If it's on brand and it's connecting with your audience, you can, by all means, use AI as a tool to help you be more efficient, but you should always create content as a human for your human audience.
Nick Stamoulis:I agree. John, your thoughts on this?
John:Yeah. I think that you shouldn't be heavily relying on AI to make your content whether it's, you know, writing or photos or video because, you know, there's copyright issues with those things. But I think that it's good that Google is starting to crack down on it. And I think it'll it'll be the same sort of issue, that you have with, like hackers, right? You know, Google will come in or someone will in and fix a problem and start to detect AI.
John:But then the, you know, AI platforms are going to find new ways to become undetected or not the platforms necessarily. People who are using AI to, you know, put content on their websites are going to find ways around those filters. And it's just kind of an endless endless game of cat and mouse.
Nick Stamoulis:It is. It really is. And and honestly, I was really happy to see this because, I mean, we all knew. We all we've seen these patterns before and knew that, okay, Google's gonna crack down on spammy content. I mean, it's nothing new on that end.
Nick Stamoulis:So so yeah. Moving on. Next is an article on Adweek entitled AI cannot replace real leadership. And I thought this was just great. And it's a very interesting article.
Nick Stamoulis:I definitely encourage everyone to check it out at Adweek. And, essentially, it's talking about and it actually quotes how you know, in our article at Harvard Business Review was quoted in it and several studies that essentially are saying that they're finding that leadership within business, within marketing can't be replaced by AI. And it's just literally like, I just encourage everyone to read it. I'll tell you my opinion is it can't. And we've literally been talking about this that that, you know, we view at Brick Marketing AI as a tool to help scale.
Nick Stamoulis:But AI is not a replacement, especially for strategic leadership. You know, there's no way you can replace years of experience and intuition using an AI platform. I mean, I I don't see it happening at this point, and I don't even see it in the future. So I thought this was a really great article. It's great to see Adweek, you know, really advocating for for our industry.
Nick Stamoulis:It really is. So so Catherine, John, what do you what do you both think on this?
Katherine Tsoukalas:I think this is great. I have heard stories from people saying that, oh, company leadership is starting to use AI to create internal memos to convey information, and it started to make them feel undervalued. They wished I mean, you can go ahead and use AI to help you communicate with people, like, especially to help you formulate your thoughts. But if you use exclusively AI to communicate, for example, and that doesn't even cover what you can do with data machine versus human. But, anyway, if you use AI to exclusively communicate, you're gonna come off as not being very genuine, and that doesn't make you a good leader.
Katherine Tsoukalas:Mhmm. And the article also touched on, using it for data. That's great. It can help you go through information, but it should not be leadership's only way of extracting strategic understanding from data that's collected. You absolutely need to have your human touch.
Nick Stamoulis:Yeah. I I can't see how oh, well, let's just roll the dice and let ChatGPT blindly make decisions strategic decisions for our company.
Katherine Tsoukalas:Mhmm.
Nick Stamoulis:Right? Like, I feel like companies that are doing that right now are gonna pay the price in two years, three years, four years. And and quite frankly, we'll be here to pick up the pieces for you. I mean, seriously, if you're running all your all your yeah. I mean, seriously, if you're running your strategic all aspects of your, you know, your marketing strategy, sales strategy, you know, using AI, mean, I don't I don't think that's gonna be effective for you.
Katherine Tsoukalas:So Yeah. Comes off as hollow. It you don't seem like yourself. You're Right. Everyone can tell if it's you speaking or AI speaking.
Katherine Tsoukalas:We're at we're at that point with
Nick Stamoulis:Yeah.
Katherine Tsoukalas:AI use workplace.
Nick Stamoulis:So Yep. John, what do you think real quick? What do you think on this?
John:Yeah. The issue with using AI in a leader's or like as a leadership role, right, is there's a lot of issues with it. For one, being a leader is a very human thing. Like, there's a lot of, like, human randomness or intuition that's going to go into being a leader. It's not completely 100%, like, by the books.
John:Right? Things come up. You have to you have to go off of your gut sometimes. And the other thing is that AI, if you ask it to make a decision, it's going to tell you something different, right? If you ask it something and then you ask it the same thing five seconds later, it's going to be different.
Nick Stamoulis:Yes, it is.
John:You you can't rely 100% on what it's saying. It might be able to give you some decent advice depending on what it is, but that advice is going to be different. And even even using it to influence the way you make decisions is almost like, you know, random, like, drawing out of a hat. Right? So
Nick Stamoulis:I agree. Agreed. Could have said it better myself. Moving on. Next is an article from our website from the Brick Marketing blog, selling the value of AI SEO inside your organizations.
Nick Stamoulis:So, essentially, what we're trying to make the case for in this article is that, essentially, brands that are investing in AI SEO this year into next year long term will set their organizations up for for greater success, quite frankly. It's yes. We're early. Right? And and, you know, I've I've heard this from many folks that, you know, that, oh, well, let's see how it goes.
Nick Stamoulis:This is not a wait and see scenario. I mean, do you wanna wait for, you know, SEO to be completely changed before you start investing in in AI SEO again? And so and and and just a side note on this, think of of especially if you're, you know, if you're if you're own your own business or or if you, you know, you're working in a marketing organization, think of AI SEO as part of your SEO. I mean, that's really what it is. It shouldn't necessarily be a separate line item.
Nick Stamoulis:It should be part of, okay. This is a core strategic function of our marketing of our digital marketing long term in growth. You know, traditional modern SEO with AI SEO. But I'll tell you, it's it's it's the time is to do it now and really start investing in this because businesses that wait, businesses that drag their feet, oh, well, we can have AI manage it. That's another one that I've heard.
Nick Stamoulis:All I can say is good luck because, you know, AI is not like, we were just talking about AI not taking on a leadership role. It it's the exact same thing from management of, you know, of this type of a of a program. SEO, modern SEO, AI SEO, it's complex, quite frankly. You know, you have your technical aspects. Sure.
Nick Stamoulis:AI can help you with that. But then what about all of your marketing? Right? The uniqueness of your marketing, your content marketing, building your brand, citations around your brand, both, you know, on-site citations and off-site citations. AI is not gonna help you do any of that.
Nick Stamoulis:So, again, I we just this is just what we're recommending that this is really literally the time. You know, this is the era to do it. Don't wait two, three years before you start investing in this. So you guys have anything to add on this?
Katherine Tsoukalas:Yeah. So the way I see it is search behavior has already changed.
Nick Stamoulis:Yes. Yep.
Katherine Tsoukalas:Which means that if you haven't already started working on getting yourself visible in the AI platforms, you're starting to fall behind. What happens if you wait? Oh, this isn't in the budget until 2027.
Nick Stamoulis:Right.
Katherine Tsoukalas:Okay. Well, you're waiting and waiting and waiting. Meanwhile, your competitors are already working on this. So then you're gonna put yourself into a situation where you're gonna feel like you have to catch up. So don't catch up.
Katherine Tsoukalas:Work on it now. Start now
Nick Stamoulis:Right.
Katherine Tsoukalas:Rather than waiting.
Nick Stamoulis:I agree. John, anything, John?
John:And it's just a fact that people are using AI platforms to look things up whether whether you like it or not, right, it's there are people out there and they are using it to get their information. So it is valuable for yourself and your company to, you know, start doing things that might help you get into those, you know, those prompts. Right? So I think that it's you you need to be starting to look at what are, like, good AI SEO practices so you get in there. It's just it's just the way that it is, and that's the way that search is going.
Nick Stamoulis:Yeah. And and another little thing on little note on this is, yes, it's important to get started on it, but this is it's AI SEO isn't a checkbox. It's just like traditional SEO. It's right. It's not a checkbox where you set it, you leave it, and you move on to something else.
Nick Stamoulis:It's a it's an ongoing marketing strategic entity of work that needs to get done, but also is is quickly changing. And so so I think that, you know, that's another little thing is, you know, if if you let's just say you optimize your site or you do something that that will help your AI search now, there's a very good real, not even chance, probability that in six months or a year, there's gonna be a lot more work that's needed because this is a changing it's a moving target right now. It's a changing marketing medium for sure. Moving on. A great article from Search Engine Land, how AI is merging paid and organic visibility.
Nick Stamoulis:And essentially, this article talks about how, you know, the old model was paid and organic, basically one, you know, search engine result, if you will. You know, people would see your ad at the top or on the side going back even further, and then you had your organic listings, you know, blue links, people like to call But now what, you know, Gemini, Google Gemini now has Google Ads completely integrated. So we're seeing that. Accounts that are logged in to a Google Gemini account, even a page Gemini account or logged out of Gemini are seeing Google Ads. And so this just goes to show you that moving forward, it's it's all about brand.
Nick Stamoulis:It's all about one cohesive strategy. It's no longer a, you know, do you need SEO, AI SEO, or content marketing, or social media, or email marketing, or digital branding, or digital advertising. You need all of it, and it needs to work cohesively as a strategy, as a unit. And and this is literally what we're seeing, you know, with Gemini. And, of course, ChatGPT has, you know you know, chat ads in beta that are running, that are accepting advertisers in beta, which is a very different program.
Nick Stamoulis:But, you know and even in Google Ads, you can't just run a a a right now, anyway, a Gemini account only. Gemini ad campaign only. And you can't target you know, it's it's very interesting to see how the targeting is done where you're moving away from a keyword based to more intent based, brand based, answering questions based type approach. So it's interesting how that's happening. But the point on pay a point of this article is it's now you're talking multichannel, multifaceted.
Nick Stamoulis:It's not one or the other. And this is behaving literally like we knew we knew we would we would see ads in Gemini sooner than later, it's sooner. It's now. It's happening. So, Catherine John, you all wanna chime in on this one?
Katherine Tsoukalas:When AI first came onto the scene, the buzz was that it was it had killed search. It had killed SEO. Well, we know now that's not the case. It changed it changed our search patterns of behavior, and I feel like it's sort of a similar thing with the ad ad usage. Mhmm.
Katherine Tsoukalas:How are the ads gonna be displayed? All of that is adapting right along with the change, the visual change, and the internal change in how the, AI platforms are behaving. So just like all the big picture marketing elements have always been important, they're now more important than ever, including branding and everything else. So if you have all of your marketing in shape, you're gonna naturally be able to go into this new era of paid advertising a little bit more seamlessly than if you had kind of ignored it or ignored the other elements. So I feel like this is the merging of paid and organic visibility is causing us to take a step back and say, is our marketing actually in place?
Nick Stamoulis:Right.
Katherine Tsoukalas:Because this is what's gonna help you transition.
Nick Stamoulis:Actual real marketing. Right? So it's not a disjointed approach anymore, you know? Mhmm. So, John, what do you think?
John:I mean, we we knew it was gonna happen. We knew the AI platforms were gonna start, you know, doing paid visibility. It was just it was just a matter of time that it did happen. And, honestly, my opinion, it it came a lot later than I was expecting. I would've I would have expected them from day one to try and monetize, as fast as they can because as we know, AI right now is bleeding money.
John:Right. And, we'll see if, you know, it it starts to get, we start to see more paid visibility or or Oh, I think we will. More frequent because they need to start making money if they want they wanna stay. Well,
Nick Stamoulis:it but Google is also like, they're they're, you know, cash they're cash cow.
John:If anyone can tank it, they can tank it.
Nick Stamoulis:Yeah. I mean, you know, it's Chad is the one that's, I think, is bleeding a lot more money than Google because Google already has the distribution and ad products already set up. Yeah. You know? And, you know, so so I wanna just take a quick moment just to remind everyone.
Nick Stamoulis:So this this podcast, the Brick Marketing Live Podcast, is available to stream live on the Brick Marketing website, brickmarketing.com/live, and our social media platforms, but also is available as a podcast on all major podcast platforms later on today. So definitely check it out, subscribe, follow us for sure. Next is a great article from the news tribune entitled the AI the marketing job AI can't touch and why the pay is up. So article it's a really fascinating article talking about marketing jobs and related you know, and and as its relation to AI. And, you know, when we've heard it last year, this year, continue to, that AI is replacing people, you know, companies are laying people off as a result of AI.
Nick Stamoulis:I have my doubts on that personally. I think, you know, that it's it's a little bit of an excuse. So, you know, we've talked about this that, you know, these large companies sometimes make, you know, large strategic mistakes when it comes to hiring. And so and and then, you know, being too heavy in certain areas and then look for opportunities and excuses to to trim and just and that's, I think, oh, AI's AI's the reason, and then their stock prices go up. So we've seen this.
Nick Stamoulis:So but this article at the news tribune talks about how, you know, there's certain jobs that AI is disrupting directly. One is marketing technology type jobs. So technology management, managing, you know, email marketing systems, CRM, managing those type of platforms that those type of positions are taking a hit. The trend is downward looking at, you know and again, I recommend people go and check this out because it's it literally has a lot of really good data. And then but but certain ones certain areas where marketing has is maybe the trend is down in digital marketing, but certain it's not down as much.
Nick Stamoulis:Meaning, the entry level is definitely down. So down actually considerably, but the kind of the mid level in senior level tends to be kind of it's more it's kinda status quo. So I thought I thought, again, I thought this was a really great article. It'll be interesting to see. I mean, I definitely you know, and I talk about this often with marketing folks that I meet and, you know, even, you know, strategic partners that I meet and speak to that, you know, our industry, the marketing industry, is going through a major transformation now.
Nick Stamoulis:Where it's gonna end up, none of us really know. All we can do is kinda get make our best guess, quite frankly. But, you know, I believe it's it's AI is going to certain jobs are gonna get hit hard. Like, we know this. But I think by and large, I think, like we talked about, I think companies are are starting to realize you still need strategists to do this stuff.
Nick Stamoulis:You still need people. You still need human beings to manage this stuff. AI helps you just move a lot faster now and you can scale. And that's what we tell our clients is, hey. We can give you the we'll use AI to help us do our work efficiently price or charge you double or triple to use new AI.
Nick Stamoulis:Let me guess. Who wants to pay triple? No one. Right? So, you know, we see it as a great opportunity for marketers.
Nick Stamoulis:So advice, I always tell young people in marketing, entering in the into the field, become an AI expert. There's no ands, ifs about it. Like, you just have to specialize in it and how it affects your job. So anyway, so you guys wanna chime in on this one?
Katherine Tsoukalas:Whenever a new technology comes on the scene, no matter what it is, whether back in the day it was the assembly line, whatever, jobs inevitably go away to some extent, but then new jobs get created or job titles change.
Nick Stamoulis:It's true.
Katherine Tsoukalas:And I think we're just in too early of a phase. It'll just be interesting to see how things turn out. We're we're too early to know. Yes. Okay.
Katherine Tsoukalas:Maybe some jobs are going down, but that doesn't mean other jobs aren't gonna be created or haven't already.
Nick Stamoulis:Mhmm.
John:Yeah. And at the same time, I feel like a lot of the it's being used as an excuse at the moment. Right? AI is being used as an excuse to let people go. Mhmm.
John:I I don't really think that of these companies are like, oh, we're so into AI at the moment that, yeah, we are getting rid of our workforce. I think they just have too many people, and they're using it as a reason to cut off a percentage of their workforce because they don't want to say that either they had too many people or their company's not doing as well as it once was, and all these things. I really don't think that when you get into whatever, say there's a big business that just cut off a bunch of people, I don't think when you go into it and you look at whatever they're doing, I don't think they're using AI to that extent at the moment.
Nick Stamoulis:I agree. I agree. Especially because we know how slow large and enterprise companies are to make change. And and the bureaucracy internally. Right?
Nick Stamoulis:I mean, we've experienced it with, you know, large large companies we've worked with. And there's you're right, John. I mean, there's no way that they're just gonna say, okay. Every you know, we're gonna just start using AI in every everything overnight. It's it's a process.
Nick Stamoulis:I mean, I can only imagine, right, of testing and ramping up and certifications. And then, oh, this bugs. Oh, this tapped out. Right? Like, this isn't working as it should.
Nick Stamoulis:So, yeah, I agree. Really good insight on that. Moving on. Next article, a really good one from the Content Marketing Institute, why you shouldn't play safe with b to b social media. I thought this was a great article at the Content Marketing Institute.
Nick Stamoulis:Recommend everyone check it out. But, essentially, what it's saying here is that b to b marketers can learn a lot from b to c marketers. What are my takeaway on this one? And to experiment. Right?
Nick Stamoulis:Like how many clients have we worked seriously, like, I mean, you both know this. Like, how many clients have we worked with? Like b to b clients, because most of our clients are b to b. We have many b to c clients that we help as well. But, you know, we have b two b clients and they and, you know, they just want LinkedIn.
Nick Stamoulis:And they wanna kinda play it safe. And they'll say, well, you know, we just wanna update our company LinkedIn page and nothing else. And we say, well, wait a minute. You know, b to b historically is LinkedIn heavy, but, you know, we all know that having a presence and a really good presence on Reddit, on YouTube, on right? Like, and all these other channels are effective.
Nick Stamoulis:And so in in in in, you know, and and in my mind, you're even you're a b two b brand, so you don't have a ton of followers, So you don't have a ton of engagements. It's b to b. It's not b to c. Right? So what you're doing is you're building your brand.
Nick Stamoulis:You're creating citations and little signals that it's seeing your brand a lot of different places. Right? There's so people that may wanna engage with you on Facebook, that may wanna follow you on on Instagram, that, you know, why limit it to just one or two channels? So the advice we always give clients is when you're establishing a b to b social media program, you shouldn't play it safe. You should experiment.
Nick Stamoulis:You should be everywhere and really build the brand up in all of these platforms. You know? Now do you edit do you give as much attention to LinkedIn as you do Blue Sky? Of course not. You're going give more focus on on LinkedIn because that's where be the b to b world lives.
Nick Stamoulis:But you don't want to, I would say, ignore all these other channels just because you're like, oh, it's not applicable to us. So remember, it's a brand and you're selling to humans. That's just literally it's it's the easiest, most direct way. So I think this is a great article. It was really refreshing to see this specifically about b two b social media.
Nick Stamoulis:So you you all wanna chime in on this one quickly? So
Katherine Tsoukalas:clients b to b clients would often say, well, our our customers aren't on TikTok. So we're only gonna work on LinkedIn. Well, first of all, that's not entirely true. Your customers could be on TikTok. They may not be on TikTok during the workday to try to find whatever you're doing.
Nick Stamoulis:Right.
Katherine Tsoukalas:But they're on TikTok. Pretty much we all are now. So take advantage of that. Make sure you don't ignore your foundation, your foundational social media, which probably is LinkedIn or something like that. But don't ignore the other platforms either.
Katherine Tsoukalas:You should be everywhere.
Nick Stamoulis:Yeah. Yep. We are, little plug, follow Brick Marketing everywhere. We're in every platform. Yep.
Nick Stamoulis:Yep. So John, what do you think?
John:Yeah. You need to be everywhere because not only is it, you know, just more eyes on you, but at the same time, it's good for your your brand, your SEO, your AI SEO to to be everywhere as long as everything is consistent and Right. All, you know, your business shows up in the same ways on all of these platforms. It's it's essential that you're on all, if not most of these platforms. Right?
John:The big ones especially, like like you said, TikTok, YouTube, LinkedIn. You gotta be on all of them, and you have to be posting content consistently there because there are people there. And if they like what you do or randomly need a service that you provide one day, they're gonna think of you.
Nick Stamoulis:Exactly. 100%. Moving on. Great article from the Brick Marketing website from our blog. Use AI to turn data into decisions for marketing.
Nick Stamoulis:So this this is basically, again, just making another use case for AI as a tool to help you as a marketer or as a business owner scale and make intelligent decisions. AI is a great place to actually obtain data. And then and then the key is is you don't want to as we mentioned before earlier today, we're gonna keep mentioning it, is AI should not make your decisions for you, but, again, can help provide you excellent data, excellent research that used to take tons of extra time, tons of extra paid tools that, you know, you would have to pay for. Now with many especially with the paid versions of these platforms, you know, the the LLMs have just some great, you know, competitive data, research industry data, demographic data, but the key is is you wanna utilize that data to make strategic decisions within your own marketing. That's the point of this article here.
Nick Stamoulis:So, Katherine, John, you both wanna let me know your thoughts on
Katherine Tsoukalas:this one? Think of AI as not your decision making final say. That should be your own brain. But think of it as a tool that can help you gather and collect information, put it all in one spot. You can even have AI come up with some insights for you, but you get to decide what those insights mean for your business, not AI.
Katherine Tsoukalas:It can say what it's seeing. It can break it down into digestible information that you can use to better process the information. It can make your life easier, faster. It can help you make these key decisions faster, but it should not you should not say, okay. Yeah.
Katherine Tsoukalas:Yeah. What what do you think we should do?
Nick Stamoulis:Right.
Katherine Tsoukalas:Okay. Don't do that because it the the response could change. It could get all confused. You make your own decision. Exactly.
Katherine Tsoukalas:Because AI is the tool it is.
Nick Stamoulis:Exactly. And if you do, take it with a very small grain of salt before you make your decision. Yeah. So, John, what do you think?
John:Yeah. I think one of the good things that, you know, one of the best things that AI can do is take huge datasets, analyze them in way faster than you can. You can give it a data set and ask a question that you need answered. Right? And it will pretty accurately give you an answer to that question because it has that's what it's good with numbers.
John:It's good with taking it's great at taking huge amounts of data and condensing it down for you. I think that's one of the best things that it can do and can save a ton of time there. And like you guys said, don't have it make decisions for you. But if you have a specific question that would take you hours to answer on your own looking at data, try and see what AI might say about it. Might not be 100% accurate, but you'll get a good idea as long as you know as long as you're the human in the loop, you'll understand what it might have gotten wrong, and I think that's great.
John:Yeah.
Nick Stamoulis:Yeah. Absolutely. Moving on. Great article from Search Engine Land. Google AI overviews cite self serving listicles but recommend competitors 69% of the time.
Nick Stamoulis:So this is a really great article from Search Engine Land that essentially talks about there's a industry expert, Lily Ray, who basically conducted a study that found that Google cited brands own listicles and AI overviews yet excluded those brands from recommendations in most cases. So what that means is so and again, this is this is something that we're seeing a lot of people do in our industry, quite frankly, and do for clients. I actually don't agree with this approach at all, personally. This is just my own Nick Stamoulis, maybe not Brick Marketing. You both may agree with it.
Nick Stamoulis:I don't agree with it. So and which is coming up with a list comparing your company to all your competitors. So and I've been challenged on this, actually, by some marketers. Actually, at the SMX conference, Catherine, that we were at, I had some marketers actually in that session where I spoke that were literally I was going back and forth with them. This one topic.
Nick Stamoulis:And I said, well, the reason why I don't like listicles, if you will first of all, it's biased. Right? It's on your website. It's not an independent source. That's a nonbiased entity.
Nick Stamoulis:Right? So right from the get go, of course, I'm gonna put Brick Marketing at the top if I was doing a digital marketing agency list of top agencies in Massachusetts or Boston. Right? Of course, I'm gonna put us at the top. It's on our website.
Nick Stamoulis:I'm not gonna put one of our competitors on the top. But so that's one reason why I don't like it. And I feel it's too self serving and it's not about customers. It's about touting your own horn, which I don't like. Second reason why I don't like listicles is the data becomes outdated very quickly, and you have to keep updating them.
Nick Stamoulis:And why would you wanna give your your potential customers a list research list of all your top competitors on your site? Do you see? So these are reasons why I don't like it. But I think that I do like how in this study that Google in their AI overviews, and I'm I'm sure in Gemini as well, were able to differentiate and not quote the source as, like, you know, oh, it was on their site. So we're gonna quote them the top.
Nick Stamoulis:Right? I do kinda like that. So they're, like, seeing through that. But, I would never I I wouldn't recommend this even to a client. I just I wouldn't recommend this.
Nick Stamoulis:So I I don't know. I mean, you guys agree with this, disagree? I just
Katherine Tsoukalas:I I agree with you.
Nick Stamoulis:I I I know they do great. They do great in AI search. But sometimes you need to make decisions that are more that are higher level than just search. Right?
Katherine Tsoukalas:Yeah. I agree with you, and there's other reasons that you didn't quite mention.
Nick Stamoulis:First of
Katherine Tsoukalas:all, in the AI era, we are really devoted to helping people, helping clients understand that your brand has to be cohesive through all the platforms. What happens if somewhere in your content, you introduce other brands? Well, okay. AI maybe is seen through it, but maybe not. Maybe it's gonna get all confused.
Katherine Tsoukalas:Start spitting out information that has nothing to do with you. And you're like, why why does this AI platform think this about me? Oh, because I mentioned this other company.
Nick Stamoulis:It's a
Katherine Tsoukalas:real story. That I'm publishing. And but that would be very hard to technically diagnose. I just wouldn't even touch mentioning brands anywhere
Nick Stamoulis:I agree.
Katherine Tsoukalas:Media, your any of your outside the Internet, outside your own website, things that Reddit, I wouldn't even make a Reddit post mentioning No.
Nick Stamoulis:I I I don't I actually wouldn't even do that either. I mean, I actually saw we because we get listed all the time on these lists. We really do. Just we you know, we have a good reputation. We work hard at it.
Nick Stamoulis:We do a lot of marketing. We've been around for going on twenty two years. Of course, we should be on these lists. But on the flip side, I see them like, you know, there there were some lists on Reddit that I saw not too long ago, and we were listed. But it was, like, you know, a company in India that self served.
Nick Stamoulis:They put their phone number, jammed a, you know, promotional spammy text at the top, put their video at the top, and then put the list. And I'm like, I mean, kinda thanks to including us, but it's self serving. You're what you're doing too in that sense is you're almost like there's a level of brand jacking going on too with this. Because what you're doing is you're you know, someone searches for that other brand, like you said, Catherine, the AI platform gets confused, associates a different brand. Now your brand is getting modeled up with one of your competitors, and that's not clean at all.
Nick Stamoulis:I mean, I would never I I just don't rec I just don't like it. So I don't know, John.
John:Yeah. That that confusion aspect is a massive problem. Right?
Nick Stamoulis:Yeah.
John:The other thing is it's just so obvious what you're doing.
Nick Stamoulis:I know.
John:Right? Like, when I see a list like that and the person is putting themselves at the top, it's like, why am I I'm actually gonna go to the people they recommend. Right? I'm I'm not gonna go to them because they're self advertising themselves.
Nick Stamoulis:Right.
John:I'm gonna go see who they recommend after themselves. Right? So I I don't think that it it really works. I I don't don't think it works.
Nick Stamoulis:I know. Maybe maybe
John:you might get yourself an AI search fraction of a percent of the time more often, but I think it does more damage overall.
Nick Stamoulis:I I agree. And, you know, there's real ways to get inconsistent in AI search. And that is real marketing. Consistent marketing. It a lot like a lot of different channels like we do for our clients, like we do for our own company.
Nick Stamoulis:You know, where, you know, you're not depending on these spammy lists. I mean, I don't know. So anyway, everyone knows now I think how I feel about it. So anyway, we'll move on. Next, article from The Guardian.
Nick Stamoulis:The UK social media ban likely to cause £1,300,000,000 drop in digital ad spend. So I wanted to actually find an article about this because I thought it was fascinating. In case anyone hasn't been paying attention, The UK has banned social media usage, I believe, for children under the age of 16, 16 and under. So all I know is I mean, it's great. I I personally think it's really good.
Nick Stamoulis:I really think this is a good thing. I really do. I've I've actually seen it. I mean, you know, I'm a dad. I have I have kids.
Nick Stamoulis:I have nieces and nephews. I mean you know? And so and I've actually read a lot of studies, and I've seen it where, you know, kids that that are like, have that and it's one thing to have the screen because there's no way you can shield someone from a screen. You just can't. Right?
Nick Stamoulis:But it's another thing to be actively engaged in a private social media account on any platform when you're 13, when you're 12, when the brain's really still developing, when you really you're trying to figure out who you are as a kid, let alone having to now deal with the whole, you know, social media element of it. You know? And so but I've actually seen it. You know, kids that don't use it tend to be, you know, a lot better in a lot of cognitive ways later on versus, you know, the kids that do, quite frankly. And I and I and I just think it's great how The UK is the first country to actually do it.
Nick Stamoulis:Now I don't understand how they're gonna do it. I mean, I don't know. Like, are they gonna go to, you know, like, the Apple Store and Google Play Store and say, hey. I need you to block verification. Like, it just amounts of immense amount of work.
Nick Stamoulis:Do they do it there? Do they also do it at the platforms just like through Meta, through TikTok? Right? And then go that angle where you have to upload an ID or some sort. Like, I mean, I think the sentiment is great, but it's gonna be really hard to implement, especially now where it's like years after like, years after the cat's out of the bag, so to speak.
Nick Stamoulis:Whereas what they should, you know, what they should do now, honestly, is do the same type of thing for AI. Now is when you do it, when it's a a starting newer entity channel. But to do it where I mean, how old is social media now? Social media, maybe 20 years old. So you literally have a generation of kids that never did don't know what it's like to not have Facebook or Instagram or YouTube exist.
Nick Stamoulis:Seriously. And so with with AI, you could kinda catch it. So I don't know. I I see a lot of things on this one. I mean, I think it's great that if they're doing, it'll be interesting to see what happens.
Nick Stamoulis:I think it's also the $1,300,000,000 in drop in digital advertising spend, that angle is fascinating because I I can't anticipate the social platforms being real happy about that and how much money and brand think about it. Like, you know, they they they'll use that data of young kids to instill brand identity kind of messaging for brands early, then then that brand messaging will stay with that kid through their teenage years and the young adult years and being an adult and beyond, seriously. I mean, I think we all have brands that we love because, like, that we loved as a kid, but now it's different because now social media is implementing that. So, anyway, there's a lot to unpack on. It's just this one article.
Nick Stamoulis:So what do you guys wanna what do you guys think on this one? I know I could just keep talking about this one. This is a big one.
Katherine Tsoukalas:I'll give a different perspective. So I lived in Europe. I lived in Germany for five years, and it was all along the time that social media it was for three years of it. It was in the February, and I could tell by watching the media, all over Europe, The UK, that there was an inherent distrust with, the implications of social media and the Internet in general on culture and society. And this type of thing has been in the news for a decade or more in Europe.
Katherine Tsoukalas:So I find it interesting that The UK finally said, let's do this social media ban for certain age groups for children. And it'll be interesting to see if they can actually enforce it. I I don't know I don't know how that's gonna work. I do know that it has achieved cross party support. So I know that Stamoulis stepped down today.
Katherine Tsoukalas:Yes. That and he's the one that put this policy into effect, but it's actually a very popular policy that has a lot of support to it. So it'll be interesting to see how this pans out for them.
Nick Stamoulis:Yeah. Yeah. John, what do you think?
John:I I think the idea is in the right place. I just I know that the way that it's gonna be done through verification is going to completely, like, strip you of any online anonymity or privacy. Right? Because even already, the writing was on the wall that this was going to happen, and and YouTube has already implemented they're using AI to sort of try and figure out who might be an underaged user. And if you are, they force you to put an ID in, right, already.
John:So even people who are in their thirties and their forties or even older, whatever, might get flagged somehow by the AI, and now they have to give up their anonymity, they have to give their license however whatever identification they have to these platforms. And maybe okay if it's YouTube and Google, you might feel safe giving them your ID or they may already have it. But then what happens if you have to give it to Snapchat, right? Like Snapchat is a different entity completely. Do you know Yep.
John:Are they trustworthy? Is whatever. Right? You I know. It adds a layer of problems, not friction.
Nick Stamoulis:That's that's a whole another I mean, John, that's a really that's a good angle because that's a whole another can of worms that gets opened up. You know? But I also feel like, though, that most people that use social media really don't care. Because, you know, why I say that is you wouldn't be posting every minute of every part of your wife if you in your location and who you're with and when and why and your political views and all this stuff. You wouldn't do any of that if you cared about privacy.
Nick Stamoulis:Yeah. That's my point on that. Anyway, we could keep we keep talking about this. This is a great topic, but we we have other things we need to get to today. So but this is a really good one.
Nick Stamoulis:I think maybe maybe we do maybe we do a webinar about this topic, honestly. You know? And maybe we do something where we talk about it and because this is a really it's it's it's a big it's a big thing. And and I see a direct parallel, honestly, right now to AI. First early days of social media, early days of AI.
Nick Stamoulis:And it's kinda like, okay. If they're gonna wanna add some sort of guardrails for AI, this is the time to do it. Not five years or ten years from now when AI might actually be smarter than all of us. Who knows? We don't know that.
Nick Stamoulis:So alright. Moving on. Excellent article from the Brick Marketing website. AI search visibility beyond rankings. And the thing that's important here is we wanted to kinda strive with this article is for years, it was always you know, we we would do this.
Nick Stamoulis:You know, as a digital marketing agency, you know, we've been professionally managing search campaigns, content marketing campaigns, PPC campaigns, all of that since 2005 as a company. And, you know, we've for years, we always used to hear clients, we would ask them, what are your goals? Right? And they would say, oh, I wanna rank for this keyword. I wanna rank higher.
Nick Stamoulis:But with AI search, the world has changed. It's not about ranking now. It's about pure visibility. Visibility for your brand, your company, your products and services, and getting the right message out about your company that's cohesive. That's what's changed.
Nick Stamoulis:So it's no longer about rankings. It's no longer not even about what prompts are being used. Because as we we've been talking about, and we know this, prompts change the certain the the end result changes. It's a learning mechanism. It's not always gonna be the same.
Nick Stamoulis:So it doesn't matter really what prompt you use. Right? It's it's gonna be different every time. But but if your if your whole program, your entire digital marketing, your brand, your SEO, and your AI search and content marketing, everything is cohesive, now you're focusing on visibility. And that's really the point here, that rankings is not something that even should enter anyone's mind moving forward, quite frankly.
Nick Stamoulis:So, Katherine, John, what do you both think on this one?
Katherine Tsoukalas:Yes. So it has to do with how the two different plat ways of thinking about it extract information. S SEO is from the search engines, and that's algorithmic in all roads led to your website. Your website was the hub. It was the most important buffer AI.
Katherine Tsoukalas:It's not algorithmic, and your website becomes one source of many, which means that your visibility should be number one. You need to be present on the public Internet. You need to have a solid website. You need to have profiles up. Everything has to be in place.
Katherine Tsoukalas:Press releases, guest articles on on some other publication. All of it has to be online, and this is how AI finds you. It's your visibility in outside of your website that matters for AI, and it's not a ranking thing anymore. Rank is old. Get it out of your head like Nick said.
Nick Stamoulis:Yep. Yep. It shouldn't even be in the equation. Sean, anything to add on this?
John:Yeah. I think that what's really nice is that AI search is allowing like the little guys to get a leg up or or an equal footing compared to, you know, traditional SEO and rankings because it's more about the quality of the content you put out there and you using all the channels. Right? Rankings don't like this says, rankings don't matter for your AI SEO and to show up in there. So I think that's a really positive thing that's going on right now.
Nick Stamoulis:Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, it's funny. What you said, John, is literally what things used to be with SEO years ago is it it used to allow smaller businesses to be at a level of playing field with larger businesses.
Katherine Tsoukalas:Mhmm.
Nick Stamoulis:That's SEO. Literally, SEO used to be and pay per click advertising used to be that. PPC is definitely not bad anymore. Yeah. I mean, so many small businesses are getting priced out.
Nick Stamoulis:And so yeah. And, again, this is just yet another data point of why every single business, literally, I don't care if you're b to b, b to c, if you're small or large, you should be investing in AI search, generative engine optimization, answer engine optimization, whatever you wanna call it. AI visibility, you should be investing in that this year into 2027 and beyond and permanently because this is the opportunity time before it gets cluttered, before big business comes in and pushes out. You know what mean? The little guy I mean, we've seen these cycles over and over.
Nick Stamoulis:What do you the same thing's gonna happen again. Right? It's not gonna not happen again. Right? So this is the time opportunity time.
Nick Stamoulis:So just take a quick break here just to let everyone know. We're streaming on the Brick Marketing website, brickmarketing.com/live. You can also listen to our Brick Marketing live sessions and podcast on every major podcast platform. So and it'll be available later today. So follow us everywhere.
Nick Stamoulis:Connect with us and listen. Hopefully, get some good info from us. We love doing it for sure. Next is a really great article from Search Engine Journal. AI mode sends a different visitor.
Nick Stamoulis:Your website wasn't built for them. I thought this was fascinating because quite frankly, this is what I know the three of us have been talking for a while, and I know other members of our team, we talk about this all the time at our webinars, at our trainings, workshops, events we do, people we meet, we talk about this, that AI is bringing end of sales cycle type people, period. They're more researched. They're more deeper in their process. They're a little bit not a little bit.
Nick Stamoulis:They're a lot more informed than, let's just say, someone that clicks on an ad and is we like to call looky loos, people that just kinda check your site out and leave and abandon within two, three seconds. That's a looky loo. Who are you? Oh, nope. That's for not me.
Nick Stamoulis:And they just they leave. Right? AI visitors tend to not do that. They tend to be more kind of end of end end of funnel, basically, end of sales cycle. And so but what this article is saying at Search Engine Journal is correct, is the modern websites really weren't built for this type of intent.
Nick Stamoulis:Meaning, you know, it's it's like websites were built now for the old methodology, which is you come in, you have a home page, you, you know, you have your product pages, your service pages, your what your conversion happens to be on your site. You have some trust factors in there to make people feel comfortable, your audience feel comfortable, and that's really it. Right? But now what's happening is you're hitting people at the end. So your site has to be ready to convert them at that point, not early really anymore.
Nick Stamoulis:Right? So it's it's it's fascinating. I I personally think websites are changing. Where they're gonna end up, we don't really truly know yet. Maybe there's two websites or two versions of a site.
Nick Stamoulis:One that's for AI and AI bots and AI, you know, AI agents. And then you have another one that's for humans. It's about building the brand and communicating to your audience. We don't really know. But all I know is that this article is true, that the current web wasn't built for what's happening right now with with AI visitors.
Nick Stamoulis:So what do you both think on this one?
Katherine Tsoukalas:Yes. So I said during when we were talking about the previous article that all roads back then led to the website. What this really means is they were arriving in the old days of SEO on your site early early in the sales cycle, which meant that your website needed to have information for them. Right. Now they're doing all of like, a lot of their if not all of their early sales cycle, even sometimes mid sales cycle information gathering off your website.
Katherine Tsoukalas:Meaning, they're doing it in the AI platforms. They're doing it in other places that you're listed, like directory sites, whatever. So now what happened? Back then in the SEO days, maybe most of our websites were early mid sales cycle content. With the late sale the late stage sales cycle maybe didn't even have a lot of content or you just would rely on the sales team to pick it up from there.
Katherine Tsoukalas:Now they're actually arriving mid to late. So now they need a whole different way of structuring the website. Now they need all the content that they need for where they're at when they're showing up.
Nick Stamoulis:Well, we used to see it, Catherine. Right? Like, we used to see, like, not generic, but, like, what is content, definition content. Or that's early sales cycle content. And then you would have an opt in to a newsletter, opt following social media, and then you nurture the person over a long period of time.
Nick Stamoulis:Your audience doesn't need to know the early stuff anymore. They don't. That's what AI is doing for people. If you wanna, a you know, answer engine optimization and create content to maybe compete with AI answers on that end to get really early people, feel free. But that's not gonna generate conversions for you.
Nick Stamoulis:It's just it's not in sales. It's not. So you have to stick, in my opinion, to that mid and late in everything that you do, mid and late now in your content, your social media, your even your advertising and what and what your content looks like everywhere needs to be mid late. No more the discovery early. Just let early let AI flush the early stuff out.
Nick Stamoulis:That's my that's just my opinion. So, John, what do you think on this? Your
John:thoughts? I'm not gonna say too much because we talk about this all the time. We do. I want to add that that only or sorry, that the early cycle stuff only works if you are consistent with how you present yourself online. You have any or any confusion when people are using, you know, chat GPT asking, for example, what are the best marketing agencies in Boston?
John:And Brick Marketing comes up, it could have something wrong if you're not careful, right?
Nick Stamoulis:Right.
John:So you want to make sure that everything is consistent and correct online on wherever you're at, social media, your Google listings, whatever, so that when people do come in, they have the correct idea of who you are and what you do so that they might not be confused and and otherwise, you know, there could be confusion there.
Nick Stamoulis:Exactly. Yep. 100%. So true. Next.
Nick Stamoulis:Moving on. Content Marketing Institute. Your website, your rules, why owned content still wins. I thought this was a great article, really great article at the Content Marketing Institute. And, essentially, it's talking about, in a nutshell, how the best con content is your owned content, your website, your assets that you own.
Nick Stamoulis:I'm I've been a firm believer in this literally, and I know we have as a company for decades. Literally, we've been so and what this means is, you know, I remember in the early days of Facebook, right, we would, you know there were clients that would want to post full content, full articles on Facebook. And we would say, well, look. Don't do that or on LinkedIn or wherever because what you're doing is you're giving that content to Facebook. That is now their content.
Nick Stamoulis:Yeah. But it's on my account. That's meaningless. Your account is meaningless. Right?
Nick Stamoulis:Tomorrow, right, Meta or LinkedIn or YouTube or any platform could change their terms of service. And all your wonderful content you've spent an exorbitant amount of time, money, resources, and effort building could be gone. But guess what? When you own it, when you have it in your own website, your own brand, that is literally you're it's you're you're on the you're on the domain. You're you're paying for the hosting.
Nick Stamoulis:No one can touch that content, you know, from you. You can't have a third party just say, oh, you know, people may not agree with it. Right? That's freedom of speech. But the point is, you know, you either there's you're not gonna have a third party, especially from a business perspective.
Nick Stamoulis:So the our advice always is, you know, get your content everywhere. Be everywhere, but the root of your content should be your assets that you own as an organization, as a company. And so what do you what do you both think on this?
Katherine Tsoukalas:How it works is that, yes, AI uses all these other sources besides your website to gather information about you. But control all of that. Control how you're listed in the profiles. Release press releases. This is all your content.
Katherine Tsoukalas:Now on the flip side well, not the flip side, but to add to that, don't do this at the expense of working on the content in your own website. Your goal is to make your website the number one source of all the sources where your business is mentioned.
Nick Stamoulis:Mhmm.
Katherine Tsoukalas:That's what your goal should be. Yep. And in doing so, AI is gonna say this is the most important source for this business. You want that most important source to be your website, not a listing somewhere.
Nick Stamoulis:Absolutely. John, what do you think?
John:Yeah. I mean, you bring up a great point of when your content is being hosted somewhere else, who knows what change might be made on that platform to where something you were doing might somehow be against their terms of service now. Even if you weren't doing anything necessarily bad. Right? There could be maybe they don't want pictures on posts anymore.
John:Who knows? Something silly. Right? And all that content gets deleted. Well, on your website, that's not going to happen.
John:Right? So you need, you know, you need to have your own website and your your all of your content should also live there so that if something happens that still exists online and you can still get cited by AI. You can still get, you know, good traffic and all that.
Nick Stamoulis:Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. It it just it never ceases to amaze me how people don't understand these concepts, but this is why we talk about it. Moving on.
Nick Stamoulis:Wonderful article from Forbes, Forbes website, forbes.com, that essentially says surviving AI, the new era of b to b marketing. And so really what this article talks about is, you know, there are things that AI and again, like, we talk a lot about, and we're going to continue to talk about it. And it's great to see, you know, media talk about this as well. But what things from a b to b perspective, AI can't structurally do? It's, you know and I'll just read some of these key points.
Nick Stamoulis:It says stop competing with the machine on volume. You know, AI, you know if AI can produce 50 ad variants, your edge isn't producing fifty first. Your edge is choosing which to go live. Right? So it's it's true.
Nick Stamoulis:Right? Become the editor, not the writer. Well, I mean, I agree to that to a certain point, but the point is here is is knowing what's like, you know, if you're like, we've talked about, right, that AI can't do should not be used in a strategic fashion because you need to be able to look at something and say, okay. That's accurate or that isn't accurate. That is written properly or that isn't written properly.
Nick Stamoulis:That's not on brand. That's not the right tone. Right? And so you need to be able to do that. And then it says, you know, other things that, you know, that that that one thing that AI can't replicate is it even says it in the article is it doesn't have scar tissue.
Nick Stamoulis:It wasn't in those meeting rooms, and it can't pattern match case studies, which I think is it's it's true. It's so true that it it just it can't replicate that level of experience. So so yeah. So what do you both think on this?
Katherine Tsoukalas:I personally don't look at it as surviving. I'm just learning this new thing and figuring out what I need to do in order to help my clients get visible in this new era. Okay. I like this article though because it took a positive spin on it like I'm saying. You're not behind.
Katherine Tsoukalas:Right. You're repositioning, and that's really, gold for when you read this. This is some very actionable things that Nick read out loud. So I have always felt, and I'm glad that other marketers are expressing it this way as well, that, okay. Things are different, but different doesn't have to be bad.
Katherine Tsoukalas:Just learn how to do this new thing.
Nick Stamoulis:Exactly. Exactly. I agree, Catherine. Like you said, we're not surviving AI. We at Brick Marketing.
Nick Stamoulis:We are thriving because of it, quite frankly. And we're using it to scale and grow and help our clients get even better results for our clients. That's what we're doing with AI.
Katherine Tsoukalas:Yes.
Nick Stamoulis:And so it's not about surviving. So I I I agree with that. So, John, what do you think?
John:Your thoughts? At the very least, if not anything, it's interesting. Right? You aren't doing the same old thing every single day that you were the past ten years or so or even longer. There's something new for you to figure out, and maybe sometimes it is a little stressful.
John:But it's interesting things are moving, things are changing, and and it yeah. At the it's interesting. At the at the very if you hate everything else about it, at least, you know, you're something new and, you know, it Exactly. You're yeah. Exactly.
John:Yeah.
Nick Stamoulis:Yeah. Yeah. Alright. So one more for today and then we will wrap up today's podcast. This is on the Brick Marketing website.
Nick Stamoulis:What is the role of your website in digital marketing today? I mean, I think people can begin to see a theme here. Right? But it's it's true. I mean, our article essentially talks about how your website is at the center of the customer journey, and your website should be built to to create trust and credibility with your audience.
Nick Stamoulis:And so and things are changing like we've talked about, that, you know, people, you know, that that the website used to be like the article with that we just saw about how the web, it wasn't built you know, current state of AI wasn't know, your website wasn't built for that. That's the point here. The point here is your website should be built as a credibility factor and to tie everything together, really. So, Catherine, John, what do you both think on this one?
Katherine Tsoukalas:Yeah. And this seems like a good way to end things. Right? Just to talk about what should we use our website for. I just wanna add to what Nick said and remind everyone that if we have been working on our marketing, if our website is in a good place already, adding any new new things that we need to add is not gonna be should not be that difficult.
Katherine Tsoukalas:Right? So we're in a new era the way AI is changing things, but that doesn't mean it's bad. You just need to maybe make some changes. Maybe make sure that your website is strongly branded, that you are building that trust, and that it's written in a way that supports your business. However, if you did if you had these you should have already had these goals in mind.
Katherine Tsoukalas:This has nothing necessarily to do with AI. We just need to reframe our mindset just a touch to navigate this new era.
Nick Stamoulis:Absolutely. John, your thoughts?
John:Yeah. I mean, your website should be your home of, like I said earlier, everything. Right? All of your content should be there of all levels, you know. And it it is the place where your content can live.
John:Nobody can tell you what needs to go there. Nobody can tell you what to delete. It is your probably your most important asset that you have online.
Nick Stamoulis:Absolutely agree. Absolutely agree. On that note, so I'd like to thank everyone for listening, joining us for the Brick Marketing Live Podcast. We will be back on Monday, July 6 after the fourth of July holiday at 3PM. So feel free to join us then.
Nick Stamoulis:Catch the Brick Marketing live podcast again available at all podcasting platforms and on the Brick Marketing website at brickmarketing.com/live. And we hope everyone has a great fourth of July. And John, Catherine, thank you guys again for a great job, and we will see everyone in a few weeks. Yep.
Katherine Tsoukalas:Thank you.
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